Every once in while (more often these day's of Christian governance) you see something that makes you wonder how it's possible to have been born and live in the same country with some of my fellow Americans.

I was surfing the web this afternoon and I came across a post discussing a Scarborough Country show from last week on god and the Asian Tsunami (is there a connection? how can this possibly be a serious topic for a political show?). The gist of the segment was how could a merciful god allow such death and destruction.

First up, Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, went on and about Jesus dying for our sins before saying that the victims of the tsunami were going to die anyway, eventually, so it wasn't a big deal. The important thing, to Anne, was "where are we going to spend eternity?" She concludes with "so, this is a tragedy and it's a disaster, but it's not a reflection on the fact that God doesn't love us, because God loves us and the proof of that is the cross." Yes, the cross. I see.

Next up was Jennifer Giroux, soccer mom (of 9) and web publisher of Women Influencing the Nation or WIN, a website subtitled (you can't make this shit up) "The Greatest Gift You Can Give Your Child Is Another Sibling." Gasp. Well now, Jennifer starts off by saying, "Well, you know, throughout history and reported early in the Bible, God has always used plagues, floods and natural disasters as a source of punishment" and launches into an anti-abortion tirade about the "lost generation of 40 million aborted babies". Supposedly there's some sort of connection. In Jennifer's mind, god is punishing sinners (aka abortionists) in America by killing 150,000 South Asians. Makes perfect sense to me. Of course, Jennifer can't stand up to the grilling from host Joe Scarborough who simply asks, "So, are you saying, Jennifer, that God may be killing people in Asia because of the sins that Americans are committing here?", a more than fair assessment of her point (see above). She just replies lamely, "no, I'm not saying that at all, Joe." Right. If you're going to believe these things, and she clearly does, why not have the cojones to stand up for beliefs?

What follows must have made for some really absurd television. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach accuses Jennifer of blasphemy and they start arguing and accusing and arguing and such with Jennifer saying "Rabbi, you have a selective memory of the Bible" and the Rabbi responding, "God is not a terrorist".

What's the point of all this? The point is that people can discuss this all they want, it's not going to change the fact that god had nothing to do with the earthquake in Sumatra or the subsequent tsunami, nor did god have anything to do with killer mudslides in Southern California, nor did was he responsible for your toilet backing this morning. Even if god did, there's no way to prove it, so it's pointless and tireless to sanctimoniously argue that he did. End of story.

I'm glad I didn't see the show live. I probably would have thrown a brick through my TV.

SCARBOROUGH: Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

God and the tsunami. With some 175,000 people dead and vast stretches of Asia ripped apart, a lot of people are asking, how can a merciful God allow such disaster and suffering? And should we interpret this as a sign from above?

With me now to talk about this is Anne Graham Lotz. She is the daughter of Reverend Billy Graham and the author of "Visions of His Glory," a book about the Revelation. We also have Dr. Tim LaHaye. He is co-author of the best-selling "Left Behind" series. We also have Dave Silverman. He is of American Atheists. We have got Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, author of "Face Your Fear." And we have Jennifer Giroux of Women Influencing the Nation.

I want to welcome everybody.

And, Anne, let me begin with you. I know that there are tens of thousands of people out there that are asking this question. If we are God's children and our God is a loving God, as you say he is, then how could God allow such suffering and death in Asia, 150,000 of his children right now killed? Some estimates, that maybe three, four times as many may be dead by the time they finish counting all the bodies. Is that a loving God that would allow that to happen?

ANNE GRAHAM LOTZ, ANGEL MINISTRIES: Joe, I know that God is a loving God. I don't look at the tsunami and what has happened at Asia. I look at the cross.

And when I look at the cross of Jesus Christ, when God sent his own son to die to take away my sin, I know that God loves me. So, I don't know the love of God is in question when this happens. Why he has allowed it to happen, I don't know. I can't answer that question. But I think one of the things that we need to do when there's a disaster like that is to look up and ask God, are you trying to get our attention? Is there something we can learn from this? Is there something you're trying to say to us?

And, Joe, what is interesting about this, that this tsunami did not increase death. All of those people who died were going to die anyway. And I don't mean to seemcold. And we desperately don't desire to see them suffer in such a horrific way. But, at the same time, every single one of us is going to die. And the critical thing is to determine what is going to happen to us the moment after we die. Where are we going to spend eternity?

And that's why God, who does love you, and he sent his own son to die on the cross, that, when I place my faith in him, I can be forgiven of my sin and I can know for sure that, when something happens to me-and I can die on the highway. I can die as a result of a disease. It doesn't have to be a tsunami. But one day, I'm going to die. And I know when I do, I am going to be ushered into my father's home into heaven because I have placed my faith in Jesus.

So, this is a tragedy and it's a disaster, but it's not a reflection on the fact that God doesn't love us, because God loves us and the proof of that is the cross.

SCARBOROUGH: Now, Jennifer Giroux, you believe that this may be a sign from God and this may be God punishing people because of their sins. Explain.

JENNIFER GIROUX, DIRECTOR, WOMEN INFLUENCING THE NATION: Well, you know, throughout history and reported early in the Bible, God has always used plagues, floods and natural disasters as a source of punishment.

Now, something that jumps out from that first segment to me, Joe, is you talk about a sad lost generation over there in the disaster going on in Asia. We have a lost generation of 40 million aborted babies in this country that is being ignored by so many people. I believe that this situation that happens makes all of us look inward, realize God is ultimately in control of life and death.

Look at what we're looking with just in this country with cloning, homosexuality, trying to make homosexual marriages, abortion, lack of God in the schools, taking Jesus out of Christmas. I can't pretend to know the mind of God. But, historically, there have been warnings. And God, who is all-loving and all-good, and he will not be mocked.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: So, are you saying, Jennifer, that God may be killing people in Asia because of the sins that Americans are committing here?

GIROUX: No, I'm not saying that at all, Joe.

What I'm saying is that God does allow natural disasters to happen.

He always brings good out of bad. You know, there is sin in this country. There is sin around the world. There's no way anybody could look over there and say they are more deserving than anybody else to have this disaster. We all look with horror.

And I think one thing that really has made all of us think is, we all know in the Bible it says death comes like a thief in the night and we know not the day or the hour. And it makes all of us look inward and say, am I ready to meet my maker? And am I ready, if this were to happen right now when I'm sitting in the studio or while the viewers are watching your show tonight, if a disaster hits, where is my life? Am I doing what God wants me to do? And am I living a moral life?

And we as individuals and as a country need to turn to God again, ask for forgiveness and mend our ways.

SCARBOROUGH: Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, there are some out there that are saying that, like Jennifer just did, that God has used plagues, floods, earthquakes, natural disasters to punish people for sins. What is your take on that?

RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, "FACE YOUR FEAR": You know, Joe, Jennifer Giroux is guilty of colossal blasphemy and even more colossal arrogance, blasphemy, because even Jesus on the cross says in Matthew 27 and Mark 15, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

He wanted to live. He was challenging God. He was saying life is precious, unlike Anne Graham Lotz, who just said only the afterlife matters. Jesus says, you've forsaken me. He challenged God. It's what Abraham also does when God says, I'm going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And they were more sinful than any American or people living in Sri Lanka or Indonesia.

Abraham says, are there 40 righteous people? Aren't there 30 innocent people? And you are going to kill the good people, the children? Moses says to God when God says I'll destroy the Israelite for worshiping a golden calf, Moses says, do it, but take my name out of the Bible. I want nothing to do with you, God. That's in Exodus, before Abraham's words are in Genesis. This is absolute arrogance and blasphemy.

(CROSSTALK)

GIROUX: Rabbi, you have a selective memory of the Bible.

(CROSSTALK)

BOTEACH: Jennifer, God is not a terrorist. You sound like Osama bin Laden.

GIROUX: Absolutely not.

BOTEACH: God is not a terrorist.

GIROUX: Rabbi, you can stop yelling and realize that your selective memory of the Bible is inaccurate. God is all-loving and God is all-forgiving and God will bring good out of all of this.

But we are all accountable for him as individuals, as a country and as mankind in general. And he will not be mocked.

(CROSSTALK)

BOTEACH: Jennifer, how dare you say that 150,000 people that you have never met who are probably more righteous than you, more innocent than you, poor people who just worked hard to feed their kids, how dare you say they were punished by God? You don't know those people.

(CROSSTALK)

GIROUX: That not what I said, Rabbi. That not what I said.

(CROSSTALK)

BOTEACH: If God is just-and I believe he is-then he ought to swallow Saddam Hussein alive and leave the 150,000 innocent people alone. Let him swallow the janjaweed militias of the Sudan. Let him kill Kim Jong-il of North Korea, a mass murderer.

GIROUX: Rabbi, do you believe...

SCARBOROUGH: All right, Jennifer, respond.

GIROUX: Do you believe God has ever sent natural disaster in the Old Testament? Has God ever sent natural disaster or plague as punishment to the people?

BOTEACH: What it says in the Old Testament is that...

(CROSSTALK)

GIROUX: Yes or no.

BOTEACH: Is that prophets can say that. You're not a prophet, Jennifer. You barely know the Bible, unfortunately.

GIROUX: I didn't hear an answer, though.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: Now, as they said in "Monty Python," now for something completely different, let's go to David Silverman. He is the head of American Atheists.

David, a college professor told me once that he had become an atheist after a similar natural disaster struck in the 1960s, suggesting to me that a loving God would never allow such horrors to occur. Do you agree with that assessment?

(CROSSTALK)

DAVE SILVERMAN, AMERICAN ATHEISTS: Well, yes, I do.

Before I get into that, Joe, I would like to thank you for having me on the show. American Atheists extends its condolences and its support to all of the mourners of this global natural disaster. And I would like to just take a moment to urge the people to continue to do their secular, humanistic giving to get money and aid to those who need it and to not bury your head in the sand and stare at the cross or to argue about abortion or anything like that.

Let's talk about this, for example. Would a loving God allow this to happen? Of course not. A loving God doesn't allow torture. If a loving God is all-powerful-think about this-if a loving God is all-powerful, he can do whatever he wants without killing children, without killing babies, without AIDS or without tidal waves or without...

GIROUX: You know a lot about God for that you don't believe in him.

SILVERMAN: That's right. That's right, Jennifer. I do know a heck of a lot more than you about this-about God. I'm not getting into an argument with you again, Jen.

(CROSSTALK)

GIROUX: I don't want to argue.

LAHITA: No, no, it's just not worth it, because this is a time when the world is grieving. And we're not here to talk about abortion and we're not here to talk about cloning.

We're here to talk about people helping other people. That's the secular, humanistic way.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: I want to go-let me go quickly to Anne.

And I have got Tim LaHaye that I have just got to ask some questions to.

But I want to go back to Anne Graham Lotz, because, Anne, I believe you have written a book about why, people asking the question, why God allows terrible things to happen. And I know you talked about-you focus on the afterlife, that we're all going to die, obvious-that's obvious to all of us tonight.

But, again what do you say to my college professor? What do you say to a parent who has lost a child in this? What do you say to a father that has lost his entire family, his entire life savings when he says, God, why have you forsaken me? Why have you left me here to die without a family, without a single possession?

LOTZ: Joe, I don't think there are answers to a question like that.

And I know this, that God sent his son to the cross. And we can say not to focus on the cross, but if we don't focus on the cross, we have no hope. And the cross tells us that God came to Earth and he understands our pain. He feel our pain. He entered into our suffering.

And in Bethany, when Lazarus died and Jesus went to the tomb with Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, Jesus knew he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead, but he wept and he entered into their suffering. And so, I think if we could see God's face now, if such a thing were possible, we would see tears coming down his cheeks. And he uses us. And I appreciate Dave's challenge to us to help these people. And that's a right challenge, because we can be the arms, in a sense, the voice of God reaching out to these people to love them in their suffering.

I don't know why God allows this, but I know he has a purpose. And this is something for the atheist, too, because an atheist was saying-when he says there is no God, that he is saying he came from nowhere, he is going nowhere, his life has no purpose, he is a cosmic accident. And the Bible says that God has a divine purpose for every single one of us. And this life is just part of it.

And our purpose in this life is to bring glory to God and to know him in a personal relationship through Jesus Christ. And when this life is over, where we go next is crucial.

SCARBOROUGH: All right. We will be talking more about this. We will talk to Dave and also Tim LaHaye when we return in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

Read the whole transcript of Jan 4 2005 Scarborough Country